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Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #1
Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Just changed the headgasket/new timing belt and I wound up with this...
[Image: th_phone440.jpg]
WTF would cause this? I lined up the cam gear with its mark on the valve cover...lined up the crank gear with its appropriate mark (although it doesn't make a straight line when I ran a piece of string from the cam marks to the crank marks....the mark on the crank is almost vertical.)
When I took the slack out of the tensioner the lines on the belt were no longer matched up with the marks on the gears...they were pretty far off. Would that cause this noise? I thought since it was a non-interference motor it wouldn't make a huge difference like valves slapping pistons.

My daily just died and I need to get this running asap
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2012 11:58 PM by inthetwisties.)
01-17-2012 11:33 PM
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Shifted Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Distributor Questions
1-3-4-2 is correct.

If it's LH 2.2 then rotating the distributor does affect timing.

Bullshitters have been keelhauled.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2012 01:04 AM by Shifted.)
01-18-2012 12:59 AM
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745 TurboGreasel Offline
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RE: Distributor Questions
How to time an engine

Pull #1 plug (removing all plugs will make the engine easy to turn without a tool, but isn't necessary).

Block the hole with one finger

Rotate the engine by (other) hand till you feel air forced past your plugging finger(now you are on compression stroke)

Continue rotating engine to tdc(use a feeler like a pencil or piston stop down the plug hole to verify crank mark(if present) as accurate if unknown)

Remove the distributor cap and verify the rotor points about at the #1 post on the cap(you may have to remove and adjust the distributor)
If you are installing the distributor, aim the rotor, then stab it in, may take a few tires if it has a helical drive gear.

Now find the trigger/points/whatever, and watch them while you rotate the engine another 8 degrees... twist the distributor till the trigger is just doing its thing.

You will be close enough to start the car, so snug the adjuster, be sure there is not still a wrench on the crank, reinstall cap, plug, &wire and fire it up.

This will work on pretty much anything with a distributor.

PS. Be sure the rotor is in, I've had more post service no starts from that than anything else

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(This post was last modified: 01-18-2012 01:21 AM by 745 TurboGreasel.)
01-18-2012 01:15 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
bump
01-19-2012 12:13 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
That does not sound like timing
01-19-2012 12:54 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 12:54 AM)FalunBrick Wrote:  That does not sound like timing

Nope. Sounds like something internal. But I know I didn't leave anything in the combustion chamber...
01-19-2012 01:06 AM
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Orie Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Sounds like a valve is hitting a piston to me. That would mean your timing is wayyyy off if so. Check your base timing!

You do have oil in the engine, right? Wink

Edit: follow these instructions:
http://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/En...DeadCenter

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(This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 01:21 AM by Orie.)
01-19-2012 01:15 AM
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volvogeek Offline
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RE: Distributor Questions
(01-18-2012 01:15 AM)745 TurboGreasel Wrote:  Remove the distributor cap and verify the rotor points about at the #1 post on the cap(you may have to remove and adjust the distributor)
If you are installing the distributor, aim the rotor, then stab it in, may take a few tires if it has a helical drive gear.

I wouldn't do this on a 240 - I HAVE done it but changing the timing belt in the future will be a PITA if you misalign the timing mark on the idler/distributor gear. Take it all apart and make sure everything was snug while you take it apart. Re-time the belt again. There might just be something loose behind the belts (timing/accessory). Practice makes perfect.

Unless you've REALLY shaved the head (and the vid looks like it's fairly stock) it won't be interference. The only thing I can think of really is a bolt banging on a part it's not supposed to.

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01-19-2012 01:35 AM
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harribert Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
+1 on loose crap banging around. Highly doubt it's the cam, or ignition, much less piston slap if it wasn't doing it before cracking the thing open.

Should only take you an hour or two to get the head off and on again now that you pried everything apart already and it is much more willing to come apart.

Harald

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01-19-2012 02:10 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
The shop took off 10 thousandths from the head. I don't think that's too much to cause the pistons to come into contact with the valves. When putting the belt on, the tensioner popped out and I pushed it back in...It seemed to be seated well as it should but I guess it may not be?
I don't think the timing is off that much...atleast not enough to cause any serious damage. Everybolt in the head is tourqed to factory spec.
If I took the head off wouldn't I need to get a new head gasket? I was always told once you open it up you need to change it? I figure I can prob get away with reusing it since I've only tried to start it three times.
But if something is actually loose, that doesn't explain why it won't hold an idle and stalls. Someone on TB said it could be stalling because of the resistance if something is in the combustion chamber
01-19-2012 02:19 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Thanks for the link, Orie.
01-19-2012 02:27 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
A few shims that go under the buckets in the head aren't there...could that cause the metal on metal noise?
01-19-2012 02:28 AM
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Orie Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 02:28 AM)inthetwisties Wrote:  A few shims that go under the buckets in the head aren't there...could that cause the metal on metal noise?

Uhh, yeah, since there would be slop between the cam and the bucket top. Though that shouldn't really stop the engine from running and it sounds like it was stalling out?

Also, although these are normally non-interference engines, a different cam can make them interference. Any chance it's not a stock cam?
01-19-2012 02:42 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
No, shims are on top of the buckets. Take the valve cover off and the spark plugs out and take out the fuel pump fuse. And turn the motor over manually and watch the valves. I say take out the fuse if you want someone to crank it over with the starter
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 02:46 AM by volvoDouche69.)
01-19-2012 02:45 AM
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Orie Offline
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RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 02:45 AM)FalunBrick Wrote:  No, shims are on top of the buckets. Take the valve cover off and the spark plugs out and take out the fuel pump fuse. And turn the motor over manually and watch the valves. I say take out the fuse if you want someone to crank it over with the starter

What? It would still create slop between the cam lobe and the bucket top, unless i'm smoking something seriously bad.
01-19-2012 02:48 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 02:42 AM)Orie Wrote:  
(01-19-2012 02:28 AM)inthetwisties Wrote:  A few shims that go under the buckets in the head aren't there...could that cause the metal on metal noise?

Uhh, yeah, since there would be slop between the cam and the bucket top. Though that shouldn't really stop the engine from running and it sounds like it was stalling out?

Also, although these are normally non-interference engines, a different cam can make them interference. Any chance it's not a stock cam?
Sorry man, not the shims on the bucket...but the "washers" that rest around the valve stems and on top of the retainers...I don't think the would cause any noise.
Not sure if it's a stock cam or not...Where would the markings be?
(01-19-2012 02:45 AM)FalunBrick Wrote:  No, shims are on top of the buckets. Take the valve cover off and the spark plugs out and take out the fuel pump fuse. And turn the motor over manually and watch the valves. I say take out the fuse if you want someone to crank it over with the starter

What would I be watching for in particular when it cranks over? It doesn't idle more than 3 seconds...
01-19-2012 02:53 AM
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Orie Offline
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RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 02:53 AM)inthetwisties Wrote:  Sorry man, not the shims on the bucket...but the "washers" that rest around the valve stems and on top of the retainers...I don't think the would cause any noise.
Not sure if it's a stock cam or not...Where would the markings be?

Oooh, I think you're talking about the "hushers", which wouldn't make it that loud, no question.

As for the cam markings, only the stock ones would be marked and I think they're between the lobes somewhere on the cam, but i don't remember for sure. I do agree with Falun tho, pull the cam cover and visually observe the valves.

Edit: camshaft ID is at the back of the cam, where the distributor would be on a 7/9. Apparently, you can see it with a mirror.

http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~amh110...shafts.htm
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 03:00 AM by Orie.)
01-19-2012 02:57 AM
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inthetwisties Offline
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RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 02:57 AM)Orie Wrote:  
(01-19-2012 02:53 AM)inthetwisties Wrote:  Sorry man, not the shims on the bucket...but the "washers" that rest around the valve stems and on top of the retainers...I don't think the would cause any noise.
Not sure if it's a stock cam or not...Where would the markings be?

Oooh, I think you're talking about the "hushers", which wouldn't make it that loud, no question.

As for the cam markings, only the stock ones would be marked and I think they're between the lobes somewhere on the cam, but i don't remember for sure. I do agree with Falun tho, pull the cam cover and visually observe the valves.

Hushers! Cool, didn't know the actual name of them.
I didn't see any marking on the cam when I was cleaning it...They are marked with letters, correct?
Again, what would I be looking for lol?
01-19-2012 03:01 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Don't need the hushers. Watch the buckets and see the valve travel
01-19-2012 03:08 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
If its a stock cam and you didn't do any valvetrain work it shouldn't contact the pistons at all
01-19-2012 03:09 AM
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thebornotaku Offline
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RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Guys, he just straight up admitted that the lines on the timing belt didn't match up after he let the slack out of the tensioner.

First thing's first, remove your timing covers and everything, pull the crank pulley out and pull the timing belt off. Set all the pulleys at their marks, then try putting the belt back on. It only goes on one way. There will be two marks on the belt near each other and a third way off. The third one is the cam gear. Measure and see which of the other two marks is closest to the cam mark. This is your intermediate shaft mark. The remaining one is for the crank.

Line up the top of the belt on the cam gear first, hold the tensioner side of the belt taut over the gear with your left hand and then put the belt over the intermediate gear. make sure the mark lines up there, too. The belt should touch the gear on the mark here, though it's been a while since I did a timing belt job so I will admit that I forgot what angle the intermediate gear is at. Regardless... now use your right hand to hold the belt taut over the intermediate gear and place it over the crank gear.

At this point you can use just your left hand to hold tension on the belt, by pushing it inwards (like the tensioner does). This will keep everything tight on the pulleys so you don't skip a tooth by accident. While still holding tension on the belt with your left hand, double check your timing marks with the ones on the belt. IF it's off by a tooth or two on the intermediate or cam gears, then let the slack out a little bit until you can re-position the belt properly. If the cam and intermediate gears match up, and the crank is on it's mark on the timing cover, go ahead and let the tensioner out so it's holding tension on the belt. The mark on the timing belt for the crank pulley shouldn't actually be contacting the crank pulley at the time. It will be about 4 or 5 teeth off. Put your harmonic balancer back on and turn the engine counterclockwise about 30-45 degrees or whatever necessary to make the crank pulley mark (on the belt) touch the crank pulley. Check to make sure the belt lines up with the crank pulley mark. If it does, and your other marks lined up before you turned the engine over, your timing belt is now installed properly. Re-assemble the front of your engine and start it up. Everything should be kosher now. If it isn't, then NOW i would start looking at the valvetrain. But everybody's right -- these engines are non-interference so if nothing else you don't have to worry about bending valves or anything.

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01-19-2012 03:44 AM
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harribert Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Hence I bet there is some foreign object clattering around in there.

Harald

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01-19-2012 03:45 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Hence the fact that at the end of the day its still a freewheeling motor
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 04:22 AM by volvoDouche69.)
01-19-2012 03:47 AM
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volvoDouche69 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
Unless there's a different cam in there then stock or your way off on your valve adjustment
01-19-2012 03:48 AM
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Orie Offline
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RE: Loud chatter after Headgasket change...
(01-19-2012 03:45 AM)harribert Wrote:  Hence I bet there is some foreign object clattering around in there.

Yeah, does sound like that but why won't the engine keep idling?

If you pull the FI fuse or pull the coil + wire and crank it a few times, does it sound smooth and regular or does the speed of the crank change?

Any chance one of the valve retainers fell out during reassembly?
01-19-2012 04:00 AM
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