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Brave Sir Robin
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-25-2010 08:11 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  ok.

kp1>kp2 =/= prime.

kp3 = cranking and fuel pumps running, yay!

test light on -coil blinks while cranking, nice and bright.

Yes ! nice you got fuel, ignition signal to coil, and a working ECU Big Grin

Still no start ?

Then :
Got spark at coil ?
Got spark at plug ?
Got correct timing ? (10-12 deg BTDC @ cranking and it should fire up, lookup exact timing in your greenbook Wink)

Else :
Youtube Smile

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-25-2010 08:21 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Brave Sir Robin
i have spark but it looks weak as hell.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 10:55 AM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-25-2010 08:41 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Brave Sir Robin
Its late here in DK (3.08 am) but i will have a look at the wiring diagrams tomorrow and try to help you out.

The noid light is easy to make, use a interior light bulb from the center console of almost any car, such a bulb is in the 2-5W range, and perfect for the task. Go to the pick and pull and cut a male plug of a 2 pin crankshaft position sensor, this plug fits into the injector harness plug (female). Use this plug with your interior bulb and you have your noid light Big Grin

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-25-2010 09:14 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Brave Sir Robin
4 auto parts stores later, my noid grab was unsuccessful, done for the night. had a thought cross my mind about resistor pack or something, i am just graspin' at straws with this car.

i am apprehensive of going to JY in my rarer cars, for fear of finding stuff plucked on return, van's too nice as well. have to wait for a week when the wife can go with in the "disposable" PT-GT or hitch a ride with others (chyyyyeah rrrright)
09-25-2010 10:34 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Brave Sir Robin
this last drawing wolfman poasted has a wealth of information in it, i just got done looking over the printed copy (in good lighting with a magnifying glass). moar good ideas for tomorrow! i can feel it getting closer.Big Grin

noid light: how about 02 sensor connectors, i think i can get both a M and F in one swipe?Big GrinBig Grin
09-26-2010 12:24 AM
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Post: #81
RE: Brave Sir Robin
Coupe', is your tach needle jumping when you crank it?
09-26-2010 05:54 AM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-26-2010 12:24 AM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  this last drawing wolfman poasted has a wealth of information in it, i just got done looking over the printed copy (in good lighting with a magnifying glass). moar good ideas for tomorrow! i can feel it getting closer.Big Grin

noid light: how about 02 sensor connectors, i think i can get both a M and F in one swipe?Big GrinBig Grin

Yes, that will work Smile

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-26-2010 07:29 AM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Brave Sir Robin
in the absence of noid, what is a safe way to energize the fuel relay so i can test for voltage at the ballast resistor and injector connectors? just wedge with toothpick? wheeeeee
o i can haz starter fluid test, brb!
boooyah, issue narrowed to fuel delivery!
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2010 01:48 PM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-26-2010 01:30 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Brave Sir Robin
testlight on +12 into ballast resistor vs. gnd reveals voltage present to resistor. this rules out the RSR. (throws up hands) wtf, this is crazy. out come the line wrenches to verify fuel present at the rail?

gusher, verified.

headed next to connector C, smaller one at rt supension tower, to look at grey wire vs. gnd... i would be looking for blinking light, right?
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2011 01:47 PM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-26-2010 02:49 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-26-2010 02:49 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  testlight on +12 into ballast resistor vs. gnd reveals voltage present to resistor. this rules out the RSR. (throws up hands) wtf, this is crazy. out come the line wrenches to verify fuel present at the rail?
gusher, verified.
headed next to connector C, smaller one at rt supension tower, to look at grey wire vs. gnd... i would be looking for blinking light, right?

Correct, you are looking for the noid light to blink or flicker.

If your light bulb is bigger than 3-5W it wont blink but light up dimmed, a big light bulb takes longer time to light up than a small one (thicker filament takes longer getting hot enough to produce light).

Your noid light should be connected between B+ and GRAY wire to injectors (C2 at connector, right suspension tower, or pin 13 at ECU). The ECU switches the ground pin of the injectors, other pin of injectors goes to -> ballast resistor pack -> RSR -> fusebox

(09-26-2010 02:49 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  
aaaack too hot out there, waiting til things cool down. maybe in a few hours...

it seems connector C is not test light friendly, it's sealed from the back. not only that, after thinking it though, connected as above the test light would provide a ground path- so i'd have to connect it in series instead of to ground. so i will take the connector apart slightly to get the center circuit out and put the test light in the middle of it. yes?

No, you don't want to connect the noid light in series, but between GRAY wire/C2/ECU pin 13 to B+. To get into the connector use a small needle, or a piece of thin wire. You can also connect the noid light instead of one injector, unplug em all to prevent engine to fire or flood doing test. By connecting the noid light instead of the injector, you also test the resistor pack.

See image for reference :
   




Sorry for the late reply, had a busy day Sad

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2010 11:12 PM by WolfDK.)
09-26-2010 10:42 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Brave Sir Robin
i have some of the bulbs removed from my instrument panel when i swapped in the LED's, the 94's. i also have some LED bulbs, in the same base. same routine for the smaller bulbs, e.g. the ones that fit in the back of the sunroof switch or the idiot lights on the panel. which should i use? i don't have any connectors yet, but i have some Pomona grabber test leads that will hang off of things for nao. going from B+ to C(2), there is no danger to the ECU from bypassing the resistor pack?

in a related story my neighbor across the street vapor locked his box truck and i rescued his hide in 15 seconds with a shot of starting fluid.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2011 01:49 PM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-26-2010 11:23 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #87
Exclamation RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-26-2010 11:23 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  i have some of the bulbs removed from my instrument panel when i swapped in the LED's, the 94's. i also have some LED bulbs, in the same base. same routine for the smaller bulbs, e.g. the ones that fit in the back of the sunroof switch or the idiot lights on the panel. which should i use? i don't have any connectors yet, but i have some Pomona grabber test leads that will hang off of things for nao.

Use the smallest one Smile

(09-26-2010 11:23 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  going from B+ to C(2), there is no danger to the ECU from bypassing the resistor pack?

DON'T connect B+ to C(2), that will fry your ECU and/or injectors !!!
Look at my drawing/image the dots at the end of my lines are test points, and are NOT to be connected. You connect the noid light between the BLUE point (marked: noid light -) and ONE of the RED test points. Go trough the RED test points one at a time, always using the BLUE as ground for the noid light.

Do NOT connect anything without having the noid light in series.

Don't bypass the resistor pack, it will fry injectors and/or ECU in a short time.

(09-26-2010 11:23 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  in a related story my neighbor across the street vapor locked his box truck and i rescued his hide in 15 seconds with a shot of starting fluid.

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-27-2010 12:18 AM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-26-2010 10:42 PM)WolfDK Wrote:  Your noid light should be connected between B+ and GRAY wire to injectors (C2 at connector, right suspension tower, or pin 13 at ECU). The ECU switches the ground pin of the injectors, other pin of injectors goes to -> ballast resistor pack -> RSR -> fusebox

(09-26-2010 02:49 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  
aaaack too hot out there, waiting til things cool down. maybe in a few hours...

it seems connector C is not test light friendly, it's sealed from the back. not only that, after thinking it though, connected as above the test light would provide a ground path- so i'd have to connect it in series instead of to ground. so i will take the connector apart slightly to get the center circuit out and put the test light in the middle of it. yes?

No, you don't want to connect the noid light in series, but between GRAY wire/C2/ECU pin 13 to B+. To get into the connector use a small needle, or a piece of thin wire. You can also connect the noid light instead of one injector, unplug em all to prevent engine to fire or flood doing test. By connecting the noid light instead of the injector, you also test the resistor pack.

sorry if i am confusing you, i was referring to the above instructions to connect the noid light across b+/C(2), to do so puts 12v not ballast voltage. i am comfortable with the 4 test points on the other side of the ballast.

when i had the testlight across F(2)/gnd, it did not blink while cranking, if that means anything at all. i think the ballast prevents that anyway. tomorrow i should be on this about 0700, i'll be able to get in a hour or two before the giant ball of fire begins to scorch everything.
09-27-2010 01:06 AM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-27-2010 01:06 AM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  
(09-26-2010 10:42 PM)WolfDK Wrote:  Your noid light should be connected between B+ and GRAY wire to injectors (C2 at connector, right suspension tower, or pin 13 at ECU). The ECU switches the ground pin of the injectors, other pin of injectors goes to -> ballast resistor pack -> RSR -> fusebox

(09-26-2010 02:49 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  
aaaack too hot out there, waiting til things cool down. maybe in a few hours...

it seems connector C is not test light friendly, it's sealed from the back. not only that, after thinking it though, connected as above the test light would provide a ground path- so i'd have to connect it in series instead of to ground. so i will take the connector apart slightly to get the center circuit out and put the test light in the middle of it. yes?

No, you don't want to connect the noid light in series, but between GRAY wire/C2/ECU pin 13 to B+. To get into the connector use a small needle, or a piece of thin wire. You can also connect the noid light instead of one injector, unplug em all to prevent engine to fire or flood doing test. By connecting the noid light instead of the injector, you also test the resistor pack.

sorry if i am confusing you, i was referring to the above instructions to connect the noid light across b+/C(2), to do so puts 12v not ballast voltage. i am comfortable with the 4 test points on the other side of the ballast.

when i had the testlight across F(2)/gnd, it did not blink while cranking, if that means anything at all. i think the ballast prevents that anyway. tomorrow i should be on this about 0700, i'll be able to get in a hour or two before the giant ball of fire begins to scorch everything.

My fault, the RED line should read : but between GRAY wire/C2/ECU pin 13 and B+

The ECU switches pin13/C2 to ground, imagine a switch connected between pin13/C2 and ground. When this switch is closed pin13/C2 becomes ground (0V), when its opened pin13/C2 becomes unconnected or "floating" (In electronics language called "high Z"). With this in mind, imagine a light bulb between B+ (or one of the test points) and pin13/C2. The bulb will light up when the imagined switch is closed, and go out when the imagined switch is opened. In normal operation there is no light bulb, but an injector in series with a resistor, this injector fires when the ECU completes the circuit to ground.

If you are still unsure wait with the test, and i will try to clarify further.

I am somewhat limited by being a tech, can sometimes be difficult to explain stuff to normal (not tech) people.




Just made a new drawing, think this one is easier to understand, also see steps bellow.

   

Step 1:
Connect one wire of the noid lamp to the BLUE point marked C, this wire must stay at BLUE point C for all tests.

Step 2:
Disconnect wires from all injectors

Step 3:
Connect the other wire of the noid light to RED point T1, check for flicker/blink while turning the engine over, remove wire from RED point T1.

Step 4:
Connect the other wire of the noid light to RED point T2, check for flicker/blink while turning the engine over, remove wire from RED point T2.

Step 5:
Connect the other wire of the noid light to RED point T3, check for flicker/blink while turning the engine over, remove wire from RED point T3.

Step 6:
Connect the other wire of the noid light to RED point T4, check for flicker/blink while turning the engine over, remove wire from RED point T4.

Step 7:
Connect the other wire of the noid light to RED point T5, check for flicker/blink while turning the engine over, remove wire from RED point T5.

All done, post results of above tests.

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2010 02:10 AM by WolfDK.)
09-27-2010 01:46 AM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Brave Sir Robin
thanks for spelling it all out, i appreciate that. so it's just like checking the signal at coil-, the ground is switched there, too. i am fairly tech savvy, but not on this car. this is also the first time i have seen these drawings- i had heard others calling out C-this and D-that but never knew what they were referring to.

i see that i can do this test directly between the back of connector F and some 22ga i have around here that i can stuff into/thread out of C(2) and reconnect. if test is failed i need to start looking to get the noidlight- on pin13 on the ECU that are under the connector cover, with the connector still on the ECU. correct?
09-27-2010 02:47 AM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Brave Sir Robin
now that i know i'm not going to be hospitalized i will do the tests later when it cools off, someone pissed off his major cervical ganglia real good.
09-27-2010 12:10 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-27-2010 02:47 AM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  thanks for spelling it all out, i appreciate that. so it's just like checking the signal at coil-, the ground is switched there, too. i am fairly tech savvy, but not on this car. this is also the first time i have seen these drawings- i had heard others calling out C-this and D-that but never knew what they were referring to.

i see that i can do this test directly between the back of connector F and some 22ga i have around here that i can stuff into/thread out of C(2) and reconnect. if test is failed i need to start looking to get the noidlight- on pin13 on the ECU that are under the connector cover, with the connector still on the ECU. correct?

Almost correct, if you do the test at connector F you will verify power to the risistor pack, but not verify that the resistor pack is good.

You can test at connector F first, and if you got power at connector F you can test at points T1-T4, if you got no power at connector F test at T5.

What ever you do, just don't connect anything without the noid light in series.

(C2) <----(noid light)----> (one of the RED test points)

Signature :
<---- = wire to noid light
----> = wire to noid light
(Noid light) = test lamp 3-5W


Will try to snap some pics of noid light in operation on my own car, if that can help ?

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2010 04:26 PM by WolfDK.)
09-27-2010 04:21 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Brave Sir Robin
this is connector F.
[Image: conn_f10.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2011 12:57 PM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-27-2010 05:01 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Brave Sir Robin
Yes yes, use that connector for the tests, its perfect Smile

Your noid light test rig is also perfect, connect black wire to C2 and leave it there for all tests, use red wire at the test points in CONNECTOR F.

Do yourself a favor and test the noid light across the battery before use (its annoying to find out later that the bulb has burned out Wink )

Go go go Big Grin

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2010 05:17 PM by WolfDK.)
09-27-2010 05:14 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Brave Sir Robin
not lookin good.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 10:57 AM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-27-2010 05:56 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Brave Sir Robin
Are you cranking the engine while testing ? Injectors will ONLY fire while cranking.

Disassemble the multiplug at the ECU and test here, instead of disassembling ECU, the pins are marked with numbers inside the multiplug.

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-27-2010 06:04 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-27-2010 06:04 PM)WolfDK Wrote:  Are you cranking the engine while testing ? Injectors will ONLY fire while cranking.

Disassemble the multiplug at the ECU and test here, instead of disassembling ECU, the pins are marked with numbers inside the multiplug.

yes sir! at step 4- cranking. step 5, not, since the car body ground isn't "switched" (that was me simulating the ECU providing ground)

step 4 proves i don't have that switched ground available somewhere from C(2) onward. step 5 proved out the supply of +12 from RSR and resistor pack continuity.
i will repeat teh tests in a while, just to be sure, and then pull the cover off of the back of the connector at the ECU. it's way too freaking hot outside, >100f, to do it right nao.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2010 06:17 PM by Coupe' de Tat.)
09-27-2010 06:12 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Brave Sir Robin
(09-27-2010 06:12 PM)Coupe' de Tat Wrote:  yes sir! at step 4- cranking. step 5, not, since the car body ground isn't "switched" (that was me simulating the ECU providing ground)

step 4 proves i don't have that switched ground available somewhere from C(2) onward. step 5 proved out the supply of +12 from RSR and resistor pack continuity.

Think your test is valid, next step is to look for switched ground at ECU pin 13, disassemble the multiplug for access to pin 13.

- Enough boost is a fine balance between fun and flying parts
09-27-2010 06:22 PM
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Coupe' de Tat Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Brave Sir Robin
LOL. it is 112* outside, right now. that was taken at 40mph from the ambient temp gauge (in my 244)!

just got back from going to the local shop listed for my catalytic converter repair. not only is his english shitty, he refuses to work on it. "we don't work on volvos, only the honda, the GM, no european cars! we are not equipped to work on them". i literally laughed in his face.

i can see that finding a shop to do the smog repair from this list is going to be a chore in itself.
09-27-2010 06:57 PM
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WolfDK Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Brave Sir Robin
Makes one wonder if he actually know whats he is doing... or is supposed to do Rolleyes

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09-28-2010 09:09 AM
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