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142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
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Orie Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
Sorry to get off topic here, but I wanted to chime in on the build itself, awesome! I love how you squeezed the turbo in there yet it ended up looking really clean.

RIP seaNM9

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
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10-10-2011 12:12 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
squeezing in the turbo & all the fabrication was the fun part Smile

thanks for the comments!

i'm digging through the megasquirt. i can re-create the false trigger at nearly any rpm on the stim.
went through the whole board, re-touching all the solder areas.
can't find any shorted areas.
i removed the injector drivers, the spark board, idle control, fan control. testing each step along the way; still false triggers.
at this rate it'll be a bare board again pretty soon Smile
10-10-2011 12:21 PM
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Karl Buchka Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
What do you mean you can recreate it? Are you saying it will randomly false trigger at any rpm or are you doing something specific to it to make it false trigger?

Do you have an oscilloscope?
10-10-2011 12:52 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #29
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
the screen cap above is it sitting on the JimStim at a set RPM. not doing anything, not touching the MS box... it'll just false trigger. every once in a while (pretty often) trigger after ~10 or so "teeth"... no pattern that i see.

don't have a scope... at least not a working one.


edit: bah. it's down to as bare of a board as possible, nearly everything removed... still the crap triggering. i noticed if i touch the crystal the tooth log does all sorts of weird stuff. and it resets.
it would be rad if a 12 cent crystal was actually the whole issue. in any case, i'm done with this particular MS box until some other day.

a new MSII on an assembled v3 board is on its way from diy autotune. all it'll need is the 4 bar MAP, & the 4 BIPs. Not sure if i'm gonna use the JBPerf injector board or not.
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2011 02:03 PM by dhallilama.)
10-10-2011 12:57 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #30
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
megasquirt.... take two.

this time an MSII... and this time it actually works.

[Image: IMAG0446.jpg]

finished the tach output, launch input and boost output. 4 BIPs with their own output/ground.
going to put it on the car tomorrow.
using the DIY Autotune hall sensor (really a gear tooth sensor). no pullup, running it through the MS VR input/conditioner. not sure why, but that's what DIY recommends...


the other MS did indeed have a bad crystal. swapped it out and it jived. LOTS of troubleshooting hours over a f'ing bad crystal. oh well... live and learn.
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2011 01:11 AM by dhallilama.)
10-14-2011 01:10 AM
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Gross Polluter Offline
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Post: #31
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
(10-14-2011 01:10 AM)dhallilama Wrote:  no pullup, running it through the MS VR input/conditioner. not sure why, but that's what DIY recommends...

Pretty much the worst recommendation, and that comes straight from the MSExtra manual as well. Every single LSx customer I've had that runs MS3 configures their hall sensors this way and they are (were) all problematic with losing sync randomly.

A logic level square wave has no business being passed through a zero crossing trigger.

68 Rustang - MS'd 351C
88 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X/MSGPIO controlled
98 XJ - Stock(ish)
10-14-2011 01:49 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #32
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
(10-14-2011 01:49 AM)Gross Polluter Wrote:  
(10-14-2011 01:10 AM)dhallilama Wrote:  no pullup, running it through the MS VR input/conditioner. not sure why, but that's what DIY recommends...

Pretty much the worst recommendation, and that comes straight from the MSExtra manual as well. Every single LSx customer I've had that runs MS3 configures their hall sensors this way and they are (were) all problematic with losing sync randomly.

A logic level square wave has no business being passed through a zero crossing trigger.

it has been bugging me... i didn't ask why they recommend going through the VR conditioner if it's already a square wave. seems to me the VR conditioner is more prone to noise issues.
i'm going to run it through the hall/opto circuit and see how that is. just a couple jumpers and a 5v pullup...


EDIT:
the 36-1 wheel mounted to a router table. DIYAutoTune hall sensor.
11200rpm without issues through the VR circuit.
11200rpm without issues through the Hall circuit (MSExtra Hall setup... tachselect to X1, optout to tsel, 1k resistor for R12, S12 to top hole of C30).

i dunno... both worked. i'll keep it on the Hall setup, though.
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2011 11:59 AM by dhallilama.)
10-14-2011 09:43 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #33
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
imported the last maps that Kenny sent... put the MSII box in... double/triple/quadruple checked everything. turn the key.. fired right up.
lumpy/rough idle, wideband reading 25:1, but obviously rich as passers by were passing out and i'm reasonably sure the property is now a brown field.

so... obviously so rich it was reading lean, but i was too tired to make my brain do anything yesterday.
a few minutes ago i went out to the car, started it up and started going through my head what could make it SO rich that there was unburned fuel in the exhaust making it read super lean... ignition!
Super Cool feature to MSII.... test mode!
spark A. i can hear the coils.
spark B. wait... now i can really hear the coils.
go back to spark A... realize that only coil #4 is firing. coil #1 is getting a signal.... but upon closer inspection; coil #1 is f'ing melted.

SO... one dead coil.

they're coils from a 2000 dodge intrepid w/2.7L V6. $30 at the local parts house. cheap enough fix.
pretty sure i know how i toasted it, too Smile
10-16-2011 10:34 PM
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Gross Polluter Offline
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Post: #34
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
(10-16-2011 10:34 PM)dhallilama Wrote:  pretty sure i know how i toasted it, too Smile


HA. We've all been there. Perhaps a thread sharing how/why we cooked stuff on MS?

68 Rustang - MS'd 351C
88 245 - 2JZGTE VVTi powered, MS3X/MSGPIO controlled
98 XJ - Stock(ish)
10-16-2011 11:04 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #35
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
bored at work, waiting for the next meeting of the day... may as well add a couple photos...

the MS box, with the BIPs on the lid and the ghetto fabulous ignition connections. figure the spade connectors are at least better than a DB37 or anything like that...

[Image: IMAG0451.jpg]

and the COP that melted...

[Image: 10-18-2011%2525202-30-33%252520PM.jpg]

they'd surely be better used in a OHC situation where they're sitting on the valve cover... but i had 'em sitting here....

[Image: IMAG0411.jpg]

the distributor is kinda pointless now, other than holding the oil pump gear in place...
10-18-2011 05:58 PM
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142autox Offline
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Post: #36
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
This thread makes me want, and not want to turbo my 142. I definitely want a ride though.

As for the M40. I have Red Line MTL in mine, though not boosted, but its survived 7500+ rpm throttle drops repeatably without breaking. Maybe they are tougher than we thought.

Good luck with the build. I'll be watching in the corner. Ninja don't mind the glowing cigarette.
10-18-2011 07:41 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #37
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
(10-18-2011 07:41 PM)142autox Wrote:  This thread makes me want, and not want to turbo my 142. I definitely want a ride though.

As for the M40. I have Red Line MTL in mine, though not boosted, but its survived 7500+ rpm throttle drops repeatably without breaking. Maybe they are tougher than we thought.

Good luck with the build. I'll be watching in the corner. Ninja don't mind the glowing cigarette.

the M40 thats in it now has Red Line MTL... has survived clutch drops with a 6 puck behind a mostly stock b20 with d-jet. welded diff, lots of abuse.
right now it's got an organic clutch with some piece of crap pressure plate.

from everything i've heard it'll be 3rd gear that gives the ghost at the peak of the torque curve.


honestly if i had it to do over, i might have just opted to put side drafts on the b20 and called it done... or even a carb'd turbo setup.
i'm sure once i'm actually DRIVING the car, i may feel different Big Grin

got another .msq from Kenny (who's remotely tuning this car, and thus keeping me from just parting it out and going back to playing with VWs)... going to load it in the morning and see how it does. so far with the last .msq i got from him, it cold and warm starts better than it did with d-jet.
10-19-2011 01:46 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #38
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
hopefully temporarily dubbed the Misfire Machine:




(can watch it in HD if'n ya want)

tons of misfires, haven't tracked down where they're coming from yet.
can see the exhaust go mongo rich with the misfires.
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2011 02:30 AM by dhallilama.)
10-20-2011 02:27 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #39
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
ok... i moved the Hall sensor off the Hall/Opto circuit and onto the VR circuit with a 12v pullup (msextra method).
then went on a quest to remove all noise i can, and do what noise mods i feel comfortable with.

inside the MS box:
  • 0.1uf capacitor between JS8 and Ground
  • 4.7uF on the boot jumper to smooth the 12v
  • 47uf 35v from center leg of Q3 to center leg of Q9 to smooth the flyback
  • removed the BIP that sits @ Q16 since i'm using a separate series of BIPs with an isolated/dedicated ground


just with that, the car starts and runs way, way better. still missing a bunch and some lost sync, but way less than before and can easily free rev to 4500rpm or so (could likely go higher, didn't wanna try)

then i turned my focus to the rest of the car.
i took the MS harness out of the car all together. cut off all the pretty shrink wrap. re-routing everything.
  • each sensor (clt, mat, tps) has its signal and ground (and 5v with the tps) twisted and separate from any other wires.
  • independent coil harness
  • +12v feed for the MS & wideband no longer runs in the harness under the hood; moved the relay under the dash. dedicated feed still from the batt positive terminal.
  • +12v for the coils & injectors on their own relay, fed from the main power wire/junction block under the hood (2ga from battery in trunk to starter, 4ga from starter to junction block)

leaving the grounds as they were. upon measuring while running and not, i think they're good... MS grounds meet a few inches past the DB37 to an 8ga ground that runs to the intake. another from the intake to the passenger side chassis.
alternator grounded to the driver's side chassis along with the block/starter ground strap.

tomorrow i'll see how the new harness does.
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2011 12:42 AM by dhallilama.)
10-23-2011 12:38 AM
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linuxman51 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
to go with that effort you've got another map in your inbox Wink
10-23-2011 11:44 AM
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83 flatty Offline
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Post: #41
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
I really like this car, everything you've done looks really clean.
10-23-2011 11:18 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #42
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
damn lack of time...

harness is done. all twisted pair, brand new fancy bosch injector plugs (i had been using the original d-jet ones), etc... all covered pretty like with braided jive.

now just to put it back in the car.

[Image: IMAG0474.jpg]
10-24-2011 10:43 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #43
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
these things are kinda jenky... but it out lived my LC-1 so far. one of the 14.7 diy widebands i bought maybe 6 years ago.

[Image: IMAG0495.jpg]

it's epoxied to a piece of lexan, velcros to the underside of my dash. ain't fancy, but it works.
10-27-2011 10:05 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #44
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
the under-hood part of the harness is back in.

need to tidy up some stuff under the dash, then fire it up. i'd have tried today, but it's out of gas...

[Image: IMAG0499.jpg]
(it was dark by the time i took a pic)

the factory wiring for the rest of the car sucks. not much to it, but it's a clusterbuff of ceramic fuses and a lot more wire than it needs.
once the car is actually running/driving, i want to replace the factory harness with something that's less likely to burn to the ground Smile
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 09:50 PM by dhallilama.)
10-27-2011 09:44 PM
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linuxman51 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
you're killin' me. get some gas in it and lets get it sorted!
10-27-2011 10:28 PM
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rvolvor Offline
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Post: #46
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
I have a universal 16 circuit harness I'll sell ya for $200...brand new.
10-27-2011 10:35 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #47
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
(10-27-2011 10:28 PM)linuxman51 Wrote:  you're killin' me. get some gas in it and lets get it sorted!

Big Grin

leavin work early-ish tomorrow, bringing home some gas for it, and getting it going...
10-27-2011 10:38 PM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #48
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
bah... keeps getting closer. it started/warmed up and was SOOOOO SILKY SMOOTH it was f'ing ridiculous. like, the motor had no vibration at all. smoooooth.

then #1 cylinder COP stopped firing. f'ing COPs.

tomorrow i'm thinking of picking up either a set of GM 2 post coils or a fowd EDIS 4 tower coil pack. leaning towards the GM just because they use good ol' fashioned plug wires and the EDIS has that funky end.

either way it's about the same price at the parts house. not as cheap as the junkyard, but i gave up on used ignition shit ages ago. wait... 3 of my 4 COPs are used...
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2011 12:33 AM by dhallilama.)
11-03-2011 12:32 AM
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linuxman51 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
hm. tellin' ya, dsm coils. all of mine have come straight outa the junkyard. they're not smart coils though, so you'd need a pair of ignition modules.
11-03-2011 08:06 AM
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dhallilama Offline
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Post: #50
RE: 142... b20, holset, megasquirt (lotsa pics)
i've got the 4 BIP373s to drive coils, so dumb coils are fine.
figure i'll use a pair of them to drive the GM 2 post coils.

DSM coils would be cool, if i didn't have to deal with one of our craptastic junkyards. new parts house wants buco pesos for one & i won't have time to visit a junkyard for at least 2 weeks. GM coils are cheap, new from the store.



edit: picked up the GM coils, wires & another couple sets of plugs on the way to work. want to go home and play with the car now...
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2011 11:50 AM by dhallilama.)
11-03-2011 09:27 AM
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